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We've seen small lesions that look suspiciously like burns inflicted on a short-haired dogs neck as a result of shock collar use. Two perfect little round spots. Exactly the size of the collar contacts. Whilst the dog might suddenly comply, it doesn't seem like anything our society would want to accept on other human beings, except possibly in the military during boot camp, so why treat your dog differently? Gentle patient education is our advice. It's hard. Don't get a dog if you're not up for it.

Hi SOMAdogs and thanks for commenting.

Its not that simple tho, read the post when you get a chance and tell me which way you would go.

@SOMAdogs Hi, a quick comment on what you describe above: Absolute perfect example of an unskilled handler that used this tool improperly, and without good training.

Whether this was someone that fancies him/herself a trainer, or whether it was Joe Public that went to Petco, bought whatever collar was on sale, and then cranked it up all the way (I am going to guess it was the latter) - it was clearly improper use of the tool.

I think it's too easy to only offer negative results and examples to label any tool as "inhumane". Inhumane can only apply to the human behind any tool.

Please read my post that Dino mentions above (under first paragraph) if you are interested.

Thanks,
Craig

Excellent observations & points above! Hey you should have used a photo of R. Lee Ermey for the drill sergeant, he's the best. :D

I have a client that is asking me for some advice about her young GSD / Lab mix. She owns two dogs, her other boy is much older and very mellow. Her younger dog is full of energy, no manners yet and quite a strong dog that was never taught how to walk properly on a leash.

The woman and her husband are older, early sixties. Her husband, while he is very fond of the puppy, "doesn't have time to train the dog" (problem #1) but she is at least committed to make the time to train & exercise him. The thing is, she has a degenerative hip condition to the point where if her strong, leash-pulling dog knocks her over during a walk (it's happened already), there is a high risk that "her hips will literally shatter", as her doctor told her recently.

So what is our solution? I could suggest to the woman that she never takes her dog on walks (unfair and unhealthy for dog). I could suggest that she re-homes the dog, which isn't unreasonable given the circumstances but she would never give him up. Or we can look at some techniques and tools that are potentially a good match for the situation.

Like you mention above, generally speaking we have hard & soft (temperament) dogs and hard & soft (personality) humans. In the situation above, we have a "hard" puppy paired with a "soft" but well-intentioned human that has a serious medical condition. Two tools come to mind for this, even though I don't normally default to them immediately: 1. prong collar or 2. halti (aka "gentle" leader, yes gentle is in quotes for a reason).

Option 2 I personally rarely recommend (different discussion), so my first choice here is a prong collar for the given situation. Strong dog + weak handler w/special needs = critical situation that requires maximum control during walks in the shortest amount of time. Power steering.

All that said - my general rule is to only utilize tools that people are comfortable with. Either way, I always make sure they first have a full and very clear understanding of any tool before they can dismiss it. So sometimes what it comes down to is saying "yes we can still acheive your goal BUT it's going to be much more difficult (for them AND the dog) if we go down road A vs. road B…".

Solutions are never one-size-fits-all, and every single tool has its advantages and disadvantages. I'll stop there for now, going to try and edit down my posts a little more lately. :)

Craig

R. Lee Ermey is of course the quintessential Drill Sargent and believe me, I considered using his pic but I already used him in another post so I figured variety will be good :-)

As you can tell, all Im trying to do with this post is show that dogmatic approach (to anything) doesnt work. I wish there was one-size-fits-all type of solution but the universe keeps refusing to comply with my wishes lol

The situation I described, which is not far fetched at all, makes so that it is your moral obligation to use the e-collar even tho you are against its usage under the normal circumstances. A kind of a paradox if you will...I like those :-)

Craig, that is a great way of explaining it (and hey, I do the quote thing on "gentle" leaders too, hopefully for the same reasons as you :D ). On a similar note, I had asked another trainer a while ago what I should do if someone comes to me and says "Why not do this or this or this?" The answer I was given, and I do agree with it, is that I am the trainer they hired to work with them and the dog. They did not hire the "behaviorist" at the local university, the trainer at the local shelter, any of the teevee celebrities, or anyone else. They hired me for whatever reason: whether it was a referral, they saw my dog out in public, they picked my name out of a hat, etc. I will train the dog in the best way that I feel works for that dog and those people, and is reasonably within my knowledge and skill set (I'm not going to train a hunting retriever when my specialty is bitework!).

Unfortunately, Dino hit it on the head that the two are sometimes not compatible. I like how you put that one technique will generally be quicker and easier on everyone, while the other one will be more difficult. I've always added the disclaimer that sometimes other more popular techniques can be horribly inconsistent in terms of results...either they can work to some extent, not at all, or sometimes might make the problem worse. It's not a matter of "If you trust me, then you will use this tool and this technique," but more a combination of things. "You are paying me to recommend what I feel is best for this dog and what you are comfortable working with" and "This is a situation in which you have to take a stand: are you willing to step out of your comfort zone to achieve your goal of a reliably-trained, happy dog that you can trust in various situations, or are you willing to continue this relationship with your dog as it is now." Obviously they are seeking help, so most people are OK with trying something new...and those who choose to go to a different trainer only get my best wishes for the dog of their dreams.

Thnx for a very insightful comment Viatecio.

Craig:
"The woman and her husband are older, early sixties. Her husband, while he is very fond of the puppy, "doesn't have time to train the dog" (problem #1) but she is at least committed to make the time to train & exercise him."

Doesn't have time might be the most (excuse my lingo) piss poor excuse I've ever heard.
Have you ever heard of/recommended something called commercial training?
In a nut shell: Sit down - treats (or w/e you use to get dog to comply,) leash w/ dog attached... Watch TV. (Can be favorite sitcom at night =] )
Commercial comes on - begin 3-5 minute short-burst training session.
No muss, no fuss. TV Show comes back on? Training session is over.
Pick it up on the next commercial.
If the show is an hr long, you've just had 4 training sessions. Good for the day. (Except for maybe the walk ;] )
Best/most effective way for dogs to learn is short-burst training - a few minutes a few times a day.
How can someone not have time for that? =p

Oh! Also... and this is an actual question... Do you really think that a prong collar gives one more control over a dog than a halti or face collar? (I don't even call it a "gentle" leader. It's a face collar to, me lol.)
In our experience, the face collars are better at eliminating a good portion of the dog's strength - more so than the prong.
So... Do you have a different experience?
My view at this point = control the head, control the dog.
But I ask because it's not as if I'm unwilling to accept a diff method or a diff view...and I'm always curious about these things and how they work for people.
(Of course, I've never seen a client use a prong, slip, or E-collar correctly anyway...)

....We are not so polite or politically correct as maybe we should be when it comes to different techniques/preferences of our clients.
Our deal is this: You came to us; if you would like to train with an E-Collar, slip, or prong, we will give you a business card for someone who teaches those methods.
It's no big deal, but we don't do them at our facility.
They work, but we don't train with them.
We can teach you how to work them, but you can't use them while you're here.
....We're not hardheaded at all, I swear.

(Part of the deal, I guess is that we've seen it go wrong. I don't like having to explain to people that if they're using a prong/choke/E-collar...or hell, even a face collar ... and the dog gets tired of it and growls at them... they can't take it off or jump or become afraid. I've seen "traditional" trainers all but hang a dog who was growling at them because, in that method, they say they have no other choice. Want to stop? Good. Next time you give a leash pop, that dog is going to bring out the attitude he did last time, because it WORKED. And NOW you have a whole different problem on your hands.

Hi... I just accidentally had a soapbox pop out.

Sorry about that...

Ahem. Short version (LOL) most people who come to us have had the issue outlined one HUGE paragraph ahead and are now afraid of their dog(s).
So... We don't allow the use of that kind of equipment. Because giving the, "Keep popping the dog till he stops or drops" speech isn't... Well, you want to do it that way, you are more than welcome to go somewhere else.

It's not that we have a problem with it. But if you're coming to our classes, you're paying to learn how *we* do it. o_o;; If you want to do it another way, that's okay...but you can't do it here.

.....Do you think that's terrible?

Hi Julie,

First I want to thank you for your reply - and that is sincere because you presented a balanced, non-confrontational, unemotional, informative reply. This is a rare thing when discussing training methods these days. Your good tone is welcome & appreciated. No approach you mention is above is "terrible" by any means, all good stuff.

Almost everything I write below I'm going to ask people to add "but it all depends on the dog" in your mind. That will save some space & redundancy here. :)

The "no time to train" being a poor excuse - 110% agreed. I always tell people "what you're going to get out of your dog is only equal to what you put in - no exceptions". But the reality is, I have to go by what the woman is telling me, and work within that world, at the same explaining she is at a disadvantage without support from other household members. Since that post, I've met the husband - he is actually a good guy. His big thing was frustration with the dog jumping up, typical stuff. We went over some basic "ignore bad / reward good" techniques, and he has since found joy & motivation to work with his puppy.

I love your "commercial training" idea! I will absolutely use this idea (w/your permission hehe) for my more sedentary lifestyle clients (or, people who are home / chair-bound for one reason or another). We live in a TV nation, and no matter how much we suggest "get OUT with your dogs people"… we know they're settling down for another riveting episode of "The Bachelorette". :|

"Do you really think that a prong collar gives one more control over a dog than a halti or face collar?"

Personally - 100% yes (but see paragraph #2 above :) ) for this woman's condition + dog's strength and temperament. She truly needs "power steering" for her dog - one bad spill due to lunging and there is a high risk of her hips getting smashed (her issue is leash-pulling on the walk).

But, the face collar / halti is my last tool of choice, so I am biased. Control the head, control the dog - totally agreed. My main problem with the face collar is that I believe it is truly dangerous - ask any good ER vet tech what happens to a dog that lunges with a face collar on, combined with the distracted / untrained handler - you get injured and/or broken necks (hence the danger in the "gentle" tag). Not nearly as uncommon as most people would think. These collars should ship with no more than a 2 foot lead, yet almost all will ship with 4 to 6 foot leads.

* Big disclaimer / interruption: ANY tool used improperly & without knowledge - even a flat collar - can cause physical and/or mental injury to a dog. * This is also very true for the most important tool of them all: the handler / trainer's own energy (mood, emotions, etc.).

But, by design, if a handler screws up with a face collar, a dog's neck is at a very real risk of being injured or even broken. So it's more of a physical risk to the dog, whereas with a prong, if the handler screws up it's going to be more of a psychological injury that will need some work to fix. NEITHER injury is good of course, and ideally - the handler doesn't screw up (dreams...).

I agree with your point about the handler giving in to the dog's tantrum - when that happens, oh boy did they set themselves up for some hard work. I also want to point out an important difference between "hanging" and "riding". Hanging is when the handler pulls straight up against a dog's will, lifting his front feet off the ground. Riding (perhaps not a formal term) is when the DOG is jumping up, acting out, or attempting to light up the handler - and the handler APPEARS to be hanging the dog, yet he/she is simply riding out the actions of the dog, moving WITH the dog's motions to prevent any slack in the lead. This is a necessary skill (riding without hanging) if the handler is going to be working with human-aggressive dogs (one of many skills of course).

In summary - when I am teaching a class I will 100% work within the confines of the school's system (meaning, these days - performance sports, obedience, manners, using purely positive approach - food, tug, etc.). When I am working with a private outside client on a serious *behavioral* issue, my approach has always been to work with whatever tool the client is most comfortable with - as long as it makes sense.

I know - long, long loooong.. sorry gang. :)
Craig