Human-Dog Problem Tree - PART THREE
The Issue of Indoctrination
In this article I will lay out the 3 primary (most popular) schools of thought, explain the pros and cons of each, and talk about that old and very human tendency to follow.
- The (William R.) Koehler method, or as it’s commonly referred to “yank and crank” training method.
- The Positive Training method popularized by Ian Dunbar, Karen Pryor, Jean Donaldson and many others.
- The Pack Structure method popularized by The Monks of New Skete and Cesar Milan.
There are of course other (smaller) factions but these are the 3 big ones.
So what’s the problem? What I’m about to say is beyond the most dog owner’s radar since most dog owners simply don’t care, but these three factions have been involved in a war of words for decades.The battle lines are drawn, the positions have been taken, and fox holes are filled with dog professionals preaching only their method as the ultimate, the best, and the only way to train the dog.
I think the method that receives the most criticism is the “yank and crank” method.
Since it’s brutal in many ways and offends today’s sensibilities, it is demonized and punished especially by the Positive Reinforcement crowd. Isn't that the definition of irony?
If we examine methods Mr. William R. Koehler used on Lassie and Rin Tin Tin (yes, William Koehler was the trainer for Disney Productions) we do learn that some methods were very aversive.
Example:
If a dog is digging up a yard, you are to fill the hole with water and shove the dog’s snout in it. He’ll learn.
Do we now know better, more humane ways of dealing with issues such as digging up a yard? Of course.
So is the Koehler method all bad?I don’t think so.
One of the principles of Koehler method training is to apply well timed corrections with conviction.
Example:For people having problems on a walk, they often are pulled by their dog. The person may pull-back on the leash, but the pull-back is only strong enough to slow down the dog. What Mr. Koehler suggest is that we apply one (if you do it right the second correction may not be necessary) correction that the dog will remember.
This is then much more humane than thousands of small, weak, nagging corrections that are ineffective in fixing the “problem”.
This is one small example of Mr. Koehler’s philosophy on training that I believe is very useful and practical.
Another thing that most dog trainers (myself included) can learn from Mr. Koehler is timing. His, they say, was impeccable.
The next faction is the Positive Reinforcement crowd, led by such greats as Dr. Ian Dunbar, Karen Pryor and Jean Donaldson.
They maintain that only Positive methods are sufficient in dealing with every situation. You will recognize them by their use of clickers, the use of treats to shape behaviors, and generally sunny and pleasant disposition. While I am very much in favor of positive training methods, we must recognize its shortcomings as well. Positive training methods (clickers and all) were first implemented on dolphins and orca whales. Only then did those methods make their way over to the dog world. The argument that this camp will make as to the effectiveness and superiority of their training method is that corrections can’t be applied to whales and dolphins; you can’t put them on a leash, so all you have to rely on is positive shaping alone. And so, the argument goes, “if you can train a dolphin in this way, you can train a dog in this way as well”. While this is true most of the time, there are two flaws in this logic.- The behaviors expected from dogs are infinitely more complex then that of a dolphin. Dogs must be obedient, track, protect, fetch, etc, etc. Dolphins on the other hand must jump out of water on cue.
- And second -and I think the most important reason- is that at the end of the day, dolphins stay at the Water World, while dogs actually live with us.
So if I want a dog to jump over an obstacle, I’d be well advised to use a treat to shape that behavior. However, if a dog has a bad habit of chewing on electric cables in the house (something a dolphin is unlikely to do) then the use of a shock collar may be advisable.
Moving onto the third camp.
There is a lot of jealousy (imho) directed at Cesar Milan and The Monks of New Skete.The Positive method crowd was on a fast track of ubiquitous acceptance when The Dog Whispered swooped in and stole their thunder, audience, and (to some extent) credibility.
This school emphasizes the similarity between dogs and wolves and wolves are used as a model to fulfill domestic dog’s needs for pack structure and alpha dog leader.If you were to give wolf and dog strand of DNA to a Genetic Engineer, he would be unable to differentiate the two. Food for thought.
The effectiveness of this method is showcased every week on Cesar Milan’s Dog Whisperer as well as Divine Canine (now canceled) by the Monks of New Skete.
So what’s the problem?
I guess it’s still too rough for the Positive crowd (especially the use of the alpha roll, physical correction, etc.). So much so that The Monks have capitulated and in their later works (books, DVDs) recommended against the alpha roll.What are the shortcoming of this method?
I think the biggest shortcomings of this method is that most people are unable to apply it effectively.Cesar Milan is great at it, but most dog owners he works with on his show are wholly unaware WHY it works. This is despite his best attempts to explain the “energy”, posture, attitude, etc.
Another issue I see with this method is its emphasis on Alpha-Dog concept. Not because it’s wrong but because of the way it’s perceived by most people.When I say “Alpha-Dog” most people think of the “big man on campus”, the boss, the CEO, the quarterback football jock, the aggressive “take no prisoners” type, and all manner of other nonsense.
In dog (or wolf) world, alpha dog is something entirely different. Alpha dog is NOT aggressive, he is not overbearing, he is not angry, mean and nasty.
In dog (or wolf) world, alpha dog’s first job is to keep order and tranquility inside the pack.He is caring, playful and kind to the young, patient, even loving, and so many other things people usually DO NOT associate with alpha-dog behavior.
What does all this mean to the dog owner receiving instructions from a dog trainer? Well, this brings us back to the issue of indoctrination. If I, as a dog trainer, belong to one camp, then I am unlikely to consider other camp’s methods as valid.Perhaps one of the other camps has a very effective method of dealing with a particular issue, however, if I’m closed off to the possibility that my camp is “wrong” then I’m unlikely to know or consider other camp’s methods.
This in the end harms the dog and it harms the dog owner.
Yeah yeah yeah...whatever Dino. Thats all find and dandy but where do you stand?
OK, thats a fair question.
As a trainer, I am committed to doing whatever works for this dog and this owner in this environment at this time. And I promise not to stop looking for a solution (to whichever methodology the solution might "belong") until a solution if found.
Thats where I stand.
I should add that marketing is a factor as well.
“Positive training methods only” looks really good on a business card. No?
In PART FOUR, we talk about detachment.Dog professionals are detached from the process of dog training.
You’ll find out WHY this is a good thing.
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Comments 40 Comments
I do not train using the methods of one camp or another. I use what I know will work best on the particular dog and owner. Every dog is different as is it's owner.
Glad you enjoyed the article :-)
It's like a recent CM slide show which labelled anyone opposed to his methods as 'New Age Behaviourists'! Create a gulf, a division and he feels his audience will stick closer to him.
You cover this subject nicely and what I take away from this article is that you are promoting the "middle way", or BT (balanced training). I'm all for this. Using what works best from each approach and keeping our minds open to all humane and logical techniques makes us all better trainers & dog owners.
Thanks,
Craig
Most dog trainers and behaviourists are going about their daily business and occassionally scatching their heads wondering how that chap on television has aquired so many fanatics.
It is no battle. More a case of bewilderment.
And to clarify, we are discussing three opposing (if you so choose to call it that) factors: the positive only camp, the old-school folks, and the BT (or "balanced training") people.
Unfortunately, Im not the one making these division. Instead, my goal is to have people realize that these divisions are not useful. Its awesome that most trainers you know use best possible method. Thats the way it ought to be, no?
In response to Craigs's comment.
The audience I had in mind when writing this post was in fact average dog owner. Secondarily, I was trying to make a point to dog trainers that these camps are not useful. Exactly like you said, Reps vs. Dems; meanwhile, we all get the short changed. Great analogies Craig, thanks.
Furthermore, feel free to discuss as long as its in a respectful and constructive way.
I have read your posts and as a Professional Trainer I find your information insulting. This group that group, how about the true professionals. Those of us who have actually done our homework so to speak. I can't think of any other profession where such blatant disrespect is thrown around. There are no divisions, just the educated and the not so educated.
Your comments to TC, who's post I whole heartedly agree with! If you would like to provide specifics, I might be interested enough to engage your train of thought. Not enough in your comment to go on though, and I'm not sure this is right place (it's not my blog). That said, I generally don't give time to "bashing" posts, because I know how they start and where they end.
IF you talk with the professional who are trying to engage in a conversation you will find that what TC has said is the truth. The only division is those who call themselves trainers and professionals and those of us who have actually worked hard, studied hard and earned our Certification as Professionals. However, having said that, it appears to mean nothing to you!
Perhaps you know where our discussion will start and end!
Insulting!
Tracey
(Certified Professional Dog Trainer)
www.ccpdt.org (Certification Counsil for Professional Dog Trainers)
I don’t think you and I are all that far off in our views. We are both advocating the destruction of divisions; which unfortunately exist in at least some people’s minds, and we are both advocating education which is the only way out of this mess.
Btw… Craig Cirelli is the chap that offered to engage with TC. I believe TC and yourself are of the opinion that divisions don’t exist, and while I share you sentiment and desire for that to be true, I find that these divisions are quite real and vicious (in more ways than one).
Having said that, I don’t think there is any need for you to be dragged into these divisions since you managed to maintain your neutrality and instead you opt for a well-rounded, educated, one-size-doesn’t-fit-all approach; you are already the kind of dog professional I wish we all were.
Great hearing from you Tracey. If you ever need a platform to write about the process and what it took to become a CPDT I would be honored if you used my blog to do it. (not in the comments section, I’m taking about a full-on article)
@Tracey, since I was quoted above in your 2nd paragraph - honestly my quick reply was to only to gather more info, because I really wasn't sure what Tc was trying to express based on the content of his/her posts.
I also don't understand how simply discussing three distinctly different and widely acknowledged paths of working with dogs on Dino's blog is anything but helpful - especially when you keep in mind that the author stated above it was written for the "average pet owner" in mind. People & clients DO ask these questions, on a regular basis. The only time a discussion really becomes destructive or insulting is when high emotions come into the mix. I don't see that here, just a clear definition of the basics of each of the three methods - and the author's opinions about them.
All anyone's done here is discuss the differences in 3 distinct training and rehabilitation approaches. It's OK to do that. It's helpful to do that, especially for the average dog owners and green trainers out there. These divisions do exist, and to me the whole point of the article to was actually to suggest we *ignore* these divisions, and use what works from each... to make us all better with our dogs.
Craig
Remember also the whale at Sea World that killed three people... was totally positive, reward based trained. The pathetic excuses that it was the last trainers 'pony tail' was thought to be a toy, were insulting. A killer whale kills mammels, as part of thier diet. They have also been recorded killing and PLAYING with the bodies of seals.......now that sounds like what happened with that whale.
I didnt hear about the pony tail thing..thats both interesting and pathetic lol.
You are right that most people have bad timing, which is something that we all need to work on AND compensate for when teaching owners.
I plan on doing a special post on Alpha Roll, I think you might find it interesting..stay tuned :-)
Nothing bugs me more than a client saying "my dog is very alpha" and it's an aggressive, spoiled, territorial dog w/o boundaries + lacking confidence (NOT alpha)! A total misunderstanding and personification of a dog in need of HELP!
We handle up to 80 dogs a day, 10 at a time per person as a company in an off leash environment and use a bit of everything but defiantly find that every dog responds to different stimuli in different ways. This article made me stop and consider each and how they work in different circumstances!
What I find most frustrating is discussing such issues with some CPDTs, I think as soon as someone discounts another method than the one they promote they are discounting themselves as a professional. In my experience some camps get hotter under the collar than others about their "competition" as it's unfortunately viewed.
Whatever people teach their clients I think ensuring they understand the dog-logic behind their actions influences the success and commitment to the training. Perhaps this is why CM is so popular...I feel he listens to the client and expects them to listen in return...what clients need to do with their dogs!
What I find interesting too is when we have people quoting "science" - tests, studies, etc. - yet in the next breath they are completely discounting the science of genetics, and traits that are (and aren't) hard-wired into a dog's DNA.
Obviously "dogs aren't wolves" (hear that one a lot) but that doesn't at all mean their inherent pack structure drive isn't there. In fact, that underlying drive is part of what they are as a species. What isn't natural - is actually the training we put on them. Not saying training is "bad" in any way, and in fact it is necessary and healthy so that a dog may live a comfortable life among humans, with many freedoms that solid training affords them. But sit / down / stand etc. - are things that we apply to them as humans, and in fact is less natural / scientific than pack drive.
I like taking it ALL into consideration - all three main methods, the importance of pack leadership, understanding a dog's needs from their point of view vs. the human's - bringing it all together and using methods and techniques that are fair, humane, and that work - I find makes for a very knowledgeable and skilled trainer / handler / owner.
Many folks have been asking about the alpha roll...I need to stop being lazy and get it done....soon..very soon..stay tuned.
So I think its reasonable to assume that some dogs in some ways at least some of the time respond to pack hierarchy.
We have an aussie mix we rescued last year, she's amazingly balanced, calm, zen-like. However getting her to "sit" and "down" on command has taken more work than I ever thought it should have. She's sweet, friendly and a great dog to help in rehabilitating dogs but she'll be damned if I ever expect her to perform in obedience!
To help illustrate the difference between training and rehabilitation (or, bringing balance to a dog), I always explain them separately, as two distinctly different things. I also make it a point to acknowledge that while they are different.. there is overlap between the two (for example, as *part* of a dog's rehabilitation we might engage the dog in training activities such as basic obedience, agility, etc.).
There's another good point you make above - not every single dog has to be a performance dog. I believe that every dog should have a job, or purpose. Like your Aussie - hers is to help bring balance to other dogs (a great job!), and be your companion / family dog. I've seen some people struggle trying to "force" a dog into a job that it really wasn't cut out to do. Being able to recognize where a dog "fits in" in life, I think is really important too.
I think its unfair for a dog owner to expect his/her dog to be balanced when the owner is unbalanced. In those situations the dog is better off NOT paying attention to the owner.
Humans sometimes fail to understand just how perceptive dogs really are. They have a spidey sense of sorts. They can smell it, hear it and see it on us whatever "it" is. I present few thoughts on this subject at http://dogandogs.com/dogs-can-sense-your-fear-but-how
Hope you enjoy the read.
What about in cases where a dog is engaging in a life-threatening (his own life or other) activity and you cannot reach him to correct / reward / work with in any way? Not every dog, especially working dogs, can be on a leash for their given job.
Case in point, a farm dog that is chasing tractor tires? A hunting dog that has an unusual interest in rattle snakes? Or even family dogs that are given the gift of outdoor freedom in medium to high-traffic areas - in exchange for some invisible fence / remote collar training?
There are plenty of applications for e-collars. And I'm saying this as someone that rarely if ever needs to rely on one. But given the right situation, if I felt it was the best tool for the best job / dog / situation - heck yes in a second I would use one, especially in cases where the dog is in danger of getting seriously hurt or killed. I've literally seen them save dogs' lives, homes, freedoms, or all of the above.
A reminder about e-collars that most opponents don't take the time to understand - 95% of all dogs (hard or soft temperaments, doesn't matter) will in fact work off of a level that a human can *barely if at all feel* in the palm of their hand (I've done countless times to myself). It is less about "shocking" and entirely about a remote stimulation given to the dog. Did you ever have electrical stimulation on a muscle in physical therapy? Did you ever see the "overnight super-abs" commercials on TV? Same principle. And those quick examples are sending much more current than almost any dog would ever need.
Can you crank up collars much higher than they ever need to go? Yes, some people do. That is called: bad training & poor judgment. I will absolutely agree that warehouse pet stores should not sell these devices, mainly because the brands they sell are CRAP. The best e-collars out there are Dogtra and Tri-Tronics. Almost others are junk. But even a high-quality collar should never be used without fully understanding the principles behind the training and the approach, good training is essential.
I'm not at all trying to convince anyone to run out and get an e-collar, not trying to start an e-collar debate, I'm just trying to bring a little balance and technical knowledge about this tool to this discussion.
Best,
Craig
Actually, any detailed info & sources you can post on this would be much appreciated. I'm having a (civil) discussion via email with a woman (an MD no less) who truly believes that pack drive doesn't exist - at all - in domestic dogs. I've pulled up a few genetics / DNA studies to support my points, but I'm always interested to see what others are finding on the subject as well.
One of my simple questions is, of all the traits that dogs do (indisputably) have in common with wolves, why is pack drive the ONLY trait that got left behind?
The answer I've received so far is (paraphrasing) "wolves do not exhibit pack behavior, there is no alpha, and they think of each other more as "family" than a pack."
Sidetracking here - thx.
Craig
In comparison, the gray wolf differs from its closest wild relative, the coyote, by about 4% of mitochondrial DNA sequence.”
Robert K. Wayne, Ph.D.
“Molecular evolution of the dog family”
Theoretical and Applied Genetics
Hope this helps Craig
Could be a good start, tho I would argue the wisdom or arguing ;-)
Anyway this is a great series, thanks!!
I never liked dogs growing up... because I detested the relationship the humans around me had with them. I didn't see the point in getting a little four-legged guy just to pick on him and decide you didn't want him anymore in less than year.
Now, I'm not saying anything bad about any training method, here. If anything, I'm disgusted by the misuse of certain training methods.
....Of course, that being said... whenever my family turned their backs, I was off with my leftovers (I never ate...) teaching the dog to do tricks for whatever they thought I was eating that night.
I wish I'd known something ANYTHING about the different methods. And I don't know about the rest of the world - but people around here ARE divided into schools of thought. ...It sucks. You can't talk to anyone about any other training method without having your head chewed off...or...did I get that expression right?
In any case, I wish we really would just all work together - do what works and is best for the individual dog.
Lovely post.
I wonder, though, if some people didn't catch on to what you were getting at. I am under the assumption that this is just about how your average Joe dog owner sees the different methods (all of which can be utilized in training, but you do have trainers - at least WE do - who will ONLY USE ONE OR ELSE.)
Why exactly DO people get so hot under the collar when debating dog training, especially in regards to these Big 3?
I have rarely found it necessary to get defensive or overblown because I am confident in my results. I see no need to compete with someone else's ability to train a dog for many and various reasons. Of course the dog is trained, and some are trained to a better degree than others, and we all know that training can all be accomplished toward different ends (agility vs Rally vs Schutzhund vs generic obedience that most families desire). I know why my method works, versus why it is superior or inferior to other methods. I'm not using my chosen method of dog training just because I was told to or because it's "tradition" or because I'm just a mean bitch, I'm using it because it's given me good results and can be tempered to individual dogs without losing the overall philosophy.
It took me forever to find the exact quote I was looking for (since I'm getting sick of saying "I can't for the life of me remember WHERE I read this, but..."), and I think this person summed it up quite nicely in regards to what someone means when they say they use what method "works" to train any particular dog:
"If you define "works" as reliable, single-command performance (and we're talking obedience here, not sheep herding) at liberty (off leash, in public, around distractions, and without batteries) well, then, your list of training methods that "work" gets very short indeed."
[From the comments section in this entry: http://terriermandotcom.blogspot.com/2010/02/your-dogs-are-mess-and-your-kids...]
Any training method will work, and yes, backfiring counts...it's working, but it may not be in the way that the trainer or owner intended. To make a method really take off and go far, though, it needs to really work. As this lady put it, when compared to the long list of various ways in "how to get a dog to [do this behavior or not do this behavior]", when speaking in terms of what the average family is asking of the average family dog, some methods are definitely better than others. Which ones, of course (without taking into consideration the method being advocated by the commenter), will always be under debate. I think of it as the "I'd love to do that, I love animals" line used by people who have no idea what is involved in certain animal-related professions other than playing with cute doggies or kitties: loving animals is a start. But it's how you can further yourself in their care and learn as much as you can about anything related to them that really sets you apart. Similarly, positive reinforcement is a start, and it should always be present in training: but it's how you can vary the reinforcement and really polish commands using both positives and negatives in a way that benefits the dog the best that can take the relationship as well as performance to new levels.
And to tie it all together: as for me, I will stick with what I know to work, strive to make it better for both me and the dogs I will one day work, and not engage in tit-for-tat arguments over how to teach/unteach certain behaviors simply because someone believes that, without meeting me or judging the perfomance of my dogs rather than judging me on what tools I use, they can do the job that much better. Perhaps I AM something of a pompous arse :)
What a fun little entry to write, and I thank you for having me re-read this and get me thinking!
So far, I have never, ever had to stray outside of the "positive" way, but that being said I am acquainted with a trainer who sometimes uses shock collars and I respect her work a lot. Why? Because she has educated, educated and EDUCATED herself and does not use aversive methods willy nilly as a "one size fits all" approach. I have NO respect for "trainers" who use aversive methods who have not extensively researched dog behavior, learning theory and the possible side effects of using such methods.
The research I have done combined with my own ethics is what has shaped me into a very creative, high energy and empathetic trainer. My number one focus is "what can the owners manage?" Even positive trainers can do a crap ton of damage if they assign a training regimen that the owners cannot handle. Keeping training fun and safe for all involved is my goal and so far so good!
Factions are no fun, but I can understand on an intellectual level why they have developed. It would be easier to dissolve these factions if EVERY trainer were well-read, well-learned and most importantly well-liked;-)
Truthfully, I think it is ok for trainers to argue with each other, but only under the condition that it is done respectfully. Unfortunately, a byproduct of these factions is some pretty heated and hateful "discussions." No matter what "camp" a trainer may reside in, I firmly believe that the best weapon to wield is knowledge. If these scrimmages could develop into informational exchanges, I think that everyone would be (pleasantly) surprised.
Alas I digress... Interesting blog=)